Ted Woolsey: A Man Ahead of His Time
Eyes on Final Fantasy
Forums (http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/index.php) Posted by Big Ogre Umaro on 04-03-2002 06:54 PM: Ted Woolsey: A Man Ahead of His Time I'm sick and tired of this Woolsey bashing. I see it most in conversations
about FFVI. Ted Woolsey was ahead of his time. Instead of just
translating, he was one of the first I know of that tried to
localize games. Like, taking out the jokes that only make sense in
Japanese and putting in equivilent ones in English. Now you see that stuff left
and right. He tried to make the games FUN for English speakers to read. Is that
so effing WRONG? Posted by mog42 on 04-03-2002 07:11 PM:
I don't have any problems with his translations. As long as you can understand what's going on in the story, I don't care if the translation is 100% accurate to the Japanese version of the game. In fact, some of the mistranslations are better than the Japanese equivalents or are at least humorous because of how little sense they make. I don't know if Ted Woolsey was responsible for them, but "spoony bard" and "fighting when mist will freeze you with breath" are not worth missing. Also, some of Kefka's lines like the "I hate hate hate... you" were good translations. Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi on 04-03-2002 07:12 PM:
Heh...yep. Posted by Big Ogre Umaro on 04-03-2002 07:45 PM:
DAMMIT 'Kishi, you were supposed to write a big long flaming post about how
TW sucked major arse so I could write a reply and blah blah blah. YOU SCREWED IT
UP!!! Posted by Bahamut2000X on 04-03-2002 08:08 PM:
Lol. But I agree. I think Ted Woolsey did a great job making the translations and I hate how everyone says "He sucks I can do better then him" I'm sick of that. I think this thread was a good idea Big ogre umaro, giving Woolsey the credit he always deserved. I mean the only bad part to his translations was that nintendo censored every game so no cussing and no holy. Posted by Sephiroth1999AD on 04-04-2002 09:36 AM:
Finally, some thread that doesn't bash Ted Woolsey or Square translations.
Whew, these are quite rare nowadays. Posted by The Man on 04-04-2002 11:50 AM:
quote:BOU, you can always count on me.  I don't like Woolsey because he changed many names that didn't need to be changed. I agree that many of the Japanese references would be incomprehensible to most Americans, and I'm very glad for "Ozzie" (which should be "Ozzy," but I'm sure Mr. Osbourne objected or something), "Slash" and "Flea" from Chrono Trigger, because the food references they replaced have little meaning for Americans. I also think Woolsey gave us many great lines. Even though it's weird, I like Cefca's "Wait, he says. Do I look like a waiter?" And FF6 wouldn't be nearly the same without such gems as "Son of a submariner! They'll pay for this..." "Run! Run! Or you'll be well done!" "I hate^16 HATE YOU!" "Uwee, hee, hee! Game over! Don't tease the octopus, kids!" "You want to live in this world the way it is? No? Then do something about it!" "The end comes... beyond chaos..." "This is sickening! You sound like chapters from a self-help booklet!" and so on. There are others, but I don't feel like bringing them forth from my subconscious right now; I've better things to do. Yes, Woolsey has some good lines. But we have to look at not only what he added to the games, but also what he subtracted from them. What I don't like is how he changed Tina to Terra (she's not earthy at all), Kappa to Imp, Cefca (or Cefka) to Kefka (it sounds too much like Kafka, as in Franz), Cayenne to Cyan, Final Heaven to Bum Rush, Mash to Sabin, Chrono to Crono, Grand Lion to Masamune, Efreet to Ifrit, Ramu to Ramuh, Cait Sith to Stray, Phantom Beast to Esper, Lethe to Lete, and the infamous "Jurassic pork soup" in Chrono Trigger. I admit that the "Holy" and "Death" changes weren't Woolsey's fault, which is why I haven't given him any flak for them here, but I disapprove of many of the other changes he was responsible for. A translator is supposed to translate. When a reference doesn't make sense in English, I think it's perfectly all right to insert something more appropriate, but only when a reference is there and doesn't make sense in translation. "Tina," for example, was just supposed to be a name, and it wasn't his place to insert an earth-like reference, especially when it doesn't fit the character; if it had been some Japanese culture reference that no Americans would pick up on, I would understand his change, but it wasn't. When I make death threats on Woolsey, I don't mean them. They're just a case of ironic exaggeration. I don't speak a word of Japanese, so I don't pretend that I could do a better job than he could, but if I knew the language, I'm sure I could. If I ever learn it, I'll prove myself to you. I'm giving Woolsey his due, but the reason I've been so scathing towards him is that he's done some things that I feel detract heavily from the games. "Terra" sounds cool. On some other character than Tina. (It should've been placed on Aerith, who was supposed to have an earth-like name, anyway. This was not Woolsey's fault, since he wasn't around for FF7). Also, the only Woolsey game whose text I like through-and-through is Final Fantasy VI. Chrono Trigger has misplaced comma splices everywhere, and that irritates the hell out of me; Holy Sword Legend 2 was done in three weeks, so its sloppiness isn't entirely Woolsey's fault, but it still is lacking far too much for me to consider it a decent translation, even given the limited time he had to do it. Some things Woolsey has done piss me off to no end, which is why I've been flaming him so much. Apparently, this bothers some of you, so I'm sorry and will try to stop. I wasn't even aware of that until today. quote:You're absolutely right. People who do that are full of shite. But I don't write things like "ted wolsey suX0XrXXz" in my posts; instead, my posts are well organized and use proper grammar and spelling, so I feel like I have a right to criticize him. I couldn't live with myself if I were responsible for such nongrammatical tripe, yet gave Woolsey flak for the mistakes he was responsible for. Yes, he has a sense of humor. But I don't know. I think his translations are just too cutesy for my tastes (I'm specifically thinking of Neko in Holy Sword Legend 2), which is probably why he irritates me so much. I'm sorry for giving him so much flak. Between Kishi and myself, it was probably getting out of hand; BOU is right. Edit: Mog42, the FF"2" translation was done by three Japanese guys who thought they had a much better grasp on the English language than they actually did. Woolsey, obviously, was not one of them. For his sake, it's good that he wasn't; I felt the sentences in that game were way too short, even if "You spoony bard!" and "Fighting when mist will freeze you with Breath!" have become classics these days. Peace The Man Posted by Sephiroth1999AD on 04-04-2002 12:47 PM:
quote: Yeah, Ozzy Osbourne might get a bit mad at Ted Woolsey for that. Then we'd get one more of those who hate Woolsey, and that's what we don't want, do we? But the food names were pretty funny too. quote: Yeah, those are all classics. And don't forget Locke's "This kid's loaded up for bear!" or Cayenne's "He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy". Or how about Sabin's "Listen, mr. Thou! Agh, now I'm starting to sound like you!" or "Do you think a little thing like the end of the world could slow me down?". Heh, they're great. Woolsey was also one who was doing FF5 Anthology translation, which Kishi keeps bragging for some reason. (Salsa is the only crappy translation in FF5... eww, a Princess Dipsauce!?) quote: I can explain some of these to you. The Terra is to match up with Celes. In Japanese the name Tina might also mean something that the Japs understand but we English don't, so Woolsey made it sound a bit more fantasy-style. Kappa was Imp because I don't think the name Kappa is as clear to Americans as to Japs (well, I'm not Japs or American, but I don't have a clue who/what is Kappa), Kefka sounds better with k's instead of c's, Cyan was due to the lack of space (but he didn't think it through fully. Cayene would have fitted). Bum Rush was due to Nintendo's censoring requests (Heaven is too religional to be used according to Nintendo... the word "Heaven" was also censored in FF4. When it was originally "Watch me from the Heavens, Anna", it was censored into "Watch me from up there, Anna"). Mash sounded a bit stupid so Woolsey wanted some Sabin's Cabin humor, probably. Chrono was turned into Crono because CT characters can have only 5 characters in their name, there wasn't enough space for Chrono. I prefer Masamune to Grand Lion. Ifrit and Ramuh are those that I've seen in FF3j, FF4 Chronicles, FF7, FF8 and FF9, and neither of those is by Woolsey. Cait Sith was censored in FF2 US as well. I don't know why. The censoring was removed in FF7 though, where Cait Sith is a playable character (that's not a spoiler! he's not even a secret character). For Esper, the summon things needed some fantasy-style name, and Woolsey made that up. Square thought the Esper idea was a good way of expressing the "Summon monsters" or "Phantom beasts", so in FF8 they call them Guardian Forces, in FF9 Square calls them Eidolons and I think they're Aeons in FFX. The Lethe thing wasn't that back. And the Ghastla/ghastly/Ghastra didn't sound too good to me. Gestahl for me, thank you. I didn't notice the Jurassic Pork soup in CT, but lol, that was a good one! For Holy and Death, yeah, blame Nintendo. They also changed Deathguise of FF6 into Doomgaze. Holy was either Pearl or White (the spell Holy to Pearl, Holy Lance to Pearl Lance, Holy Dragon to White Dragon) and Death was usually Doom (Vanish-Doom instead of Vanish-Death). I'm amazed Ted was able to keep Goddess statues. That IS indeed religional, so if Nintendo had noticed that, it would have become "Mistress statues" or something like that, ugh. The spell Crusader was originally "Doomsday" or "Jihad", not sure which, but it was censored by Nintendo. Well, that's about all I can reply to those that you listed. quote: Yes, FF7 wasn't by Woolsey. And don't make quick decisions of the game until you've played it. It's Aeris in FF7 US, and Aerith in FF7 Japanese. I don't think Aeris was meant to mean the air, I think it's pronounced like "heiress", and that suits her because... whoops, that's a spoiler so I won't tell you. I haven't played the Holy Sword Legend, so I can't tell. About Woolsey, yeah I agree he did several mistakes here and there, and it's ok for me to listen how you criticize him... for a certain limit. But you've been doing it for over a week now so I'm starting to get fed up with that. quote: Agreed. quote: That's right. Ted Woolsey is American, I believe. The three stooges who translated FF4 were all Japanese. None of them was Woolsey. Some of the lines in FF2 US were so crappy that Square kept them in FF4 Chronicles. Combined with Nintendo's censoring requests, ugh. That's one translation with short sentences and BIG problems! Posted by The Man on 04-04-2002 01:27 PM:
quote:Personally, I find enemy names in honor of Black Sabbath's singer, Guns 'n' Roses' guitarist, and Red Hot Chili Peppers' bassist more amusing than the food names, but that's probably because I'm a music freak. quote:Cayenne doesn't say that. It was either Mash or Shadow; the game never says, but I think it was Shadow. It sounds like something Shadow would say -- it's broody. Leo's temporally proxmiate speech ("Don't throw it all away for nothing; Emperor Ghastla wouldn't want that" -- I forget whether it was before or after, but it was around the same time) is also a classic, even if it shows just how naive Leo is to assume that Ghastla is such a person. quote:I never said my list was complete. All the ones you brought up were classics, also, and if I'd wanted to spend more time coming up with quotes, those would definitely be on my list. Then again, there's also Tina's "Was that a bad person? I'm scared..." after Cefca tries to burn Figaro. That line makes me wince every time I hear it. "Welcome to my barbecue" more than makes up for it, though, I think. quote:I don't like Princess Queen (aka Reina, rather than the far superior Lenna), Bartz (instead of Batz), Krile (instead of Cara), Hydra (instead of the way superior Syldra) or N-Zone (instead of the ten-million-times-superior Cleft of Dimension), either. Woolsey did FF5 Anthology? Great, that's one more thing I can sic him with blame for. At least there are loads of great lines in that translation, too, plus it was the first time any of us English-speaking folks got to legally play the game, so some good came of it. But the name changes he made from the original names (if you have the FF5 OSV, it apparently says "Lenna's Theme," not "Reina's Theme") were unnecessary. quote:As I brought up in this post, I understand that the contrast is the reason Woolsey did so, but I don't understand his reasoning for renaming her "Terra." Tina isn't an earthy character at all. Fire fits her much better. Also, Tina is more of a dreamer/idealist than Celes, so a celestial name would fit Tina even better than it fits Celes. I'm not sure why the contrast was even necessary, actually. It seems cool on paper, but it just doesn't work for me. quote:Tina is just a name, in both Japan and America. I'd like to link to the thread in which Kishi told me that, but I've forgotten which it is. Regardless, it doesn't have any additional meaning in English. quote:Woolsey changed Yeti (an Asian mythical creature) to Sasquatch (aka Bigfoot) for the same reason. But it turns out more people in America recognize Yeti, anyway. I don't think the Americanization of "Yeti" was appropriate; yes, more people know about "Imp" than "Kappa," but simply because of the wimpiness of FF4's Imps, "Imp" just doesn't cut it for being imposing, at least for me. quote:I'm fairly sure Square didn't want a resemblance to "Kafka" when they made the game, which is the reason I don't like the spelling "Kefka." Yes, it looks better on its own, but I think "Kafka" every time I see "Kefka," and now my ability to appreciate Franz Kafka's work is crippled for life. I'm silly that way; I know that. Ks do look more evil than Cs, but Cefca isn't the most imposing game villain, anyway. He definitely is evil, but he says funny things, has an effeminate laugh, and looks like a clown, so he's not your stereotypical imposing game villain. That would be Golbeza. quote:No, he really didn't. I'd much rather have Cayene than Cyan, and every time I go through the game, not only do I have to remove the fecking caps, but I also have to change Cayenne's name. I find it annoying. quote:I agree, but it should have been Final <insert non-religious reference here> instead of Bum Rush, a (probably) unintentional Public Enemy reference. quote:Yes, but "Sabin" has such a strong and unfitting resemblance to the Spanish saber 'to know' that it irritates me. "Mash" is alright by me, just like "Edge" is fine in FF4. quote:Yes, and so Woolsey should have asked the programmers to add another letter. I have programming experience and it would be easy as cake to do that, at least if the programmers were smart enough to use a constant for the name size value. Even if it weren't, it would take, at most, all of ten minutes to change. quote:Those were done because of Woolsey's FF6 translation. Square and the fan translators both wanted continuity, which is also why RPGe's version of FF5 changed "Phantom Beast" to "Esper." If Woolsey hadn't given us "Ramuh" and "Ifrit," I'm sure that all of those would be "Ramu" and "Efreet," so I blame him not just for FF6 but for all the other subsequent translations that used the same spellings. quote:Really? What was Cait Sith censored to in FF4 then? I don't remember it from J2e's version. quote:FF7 was for Sony, not Nintendo. I'm fairly sure that the censorship had something to do with why Square switched over, though it doubtlessly isn't the whole reason. quote:I don't agree with it. It wasn't a made-up name in Japanese, so it shouldn't be a made-up name in English. The translator's job is ultimately not to augment but to translate. It means we didn't get a super-faithful translation of FF6. quote:I don't agree with it, though. The original name was a clever play between "Fantastic Beast" and "Phantom Beast." It meant something. "Esper," though it does have a mystic-phantom feel to it, ultimately means nothing. If Woolsey wanted to convey mystery through a name, "Eidolon," as it was indeed translated in FF9, suffices much better and actually means something close to the Japanese name, thank you very much. quote:I think it was. Lethe, if my memory of classical mythology serves correctly, is "the river of forgetfulness" in Hades. I like it in the context a lot more than "Lete," but I bet Woolsey wasn't to blame on that one. It was probably Nintendo's censorship again. quote:"Gestahl," like "Moogle," is easier for American/English speaking tongues to pronounce, which is probably why Woolsey made the change. The intended name was indeed a play on "Ghastly," and I feel it fits the character quite nicely. quote:Eh. I think it's silly. quote:Yep. I do. Tons. quote:Indeed they did. I forgot that one when I made the list. quote:Yep. quote:Indeed. And it would have sucked hard. quote:It was Jihad. Not like Crusader is any less religious. Damn... ahem... curse you and your silly censorship rules, Nintendo of America. [snip] quote:Regardless of whether "Aeris" was intended to be pronounced like heiress, it's nonetheless Latin for "air." I already know that she (SPOILER) dies, thanks to inconsiderate people on Morpheus who proudly named their mp3 files (SPOILER) Aeris' death, so whatever. Yes, I was getting out of hand with the Woolsey-bashing. I've been kinda depressed lately, so my judgment ain't what it used to be.  You should play Holy Sword Legend 2; it's a great game. The only flaw, besides the rushed translation (Woolsey had three weeks to do it, so I go easy on him with that game) is that most of the character development for Randi, the main character, was excised, if it ever existed it all, and Popoie is also just a sprite with little background. Purim, the girl, gets plenty of development, and it rocks; the combat system is also awesome and rips other "action RPGs" like the Legend of Zelda series to shreds in terms of functionality. It has many brilliant combat ideas -- spells and weapons, after being learned and obtained, gain levels from use and forging, and in the Emperor, his wacky band of assistants, and especially Thanatos, it has some utterly detestable villains. The entire sequence in the Holy Land (aka Pure Land) is my favorite scene from any game ever, perhaps barring FF6's opera scene and FF5's ending, and Holy Sword Legend 2 is just all-around fun. Holy Sword Legend 3 is equally great on the "fun factor," and it smashes its predecessor to bits in terms of sheer immensity. There are six characters; you choose three of them for your party, and which of them is your "main" character determines exactly how the storyline is going to go. Different combinations of characters will result in completely different character interactions; I've read that one party (I'm guessing Duran, Riesz, and Angela) has a love triangle, and the characters from opposing kingdoms (Hawkeye and Riesz; Angela and Duran; and Kevin and Charlotte) always have utterly compelling interactions. Both Holy Sword Legend games have spectacular music, and the graphics in HSL3 are nothing short of stunning -- they smash even Chrono Trigger's to bits, and you have a hard time believing this was all done on a sixteen-bit system. Unfortunately, Holy Sword Legend 3 was never released in America. I'm guessing all the religious references, or else Angela's admittedly skimpy garb, made Nintendo of America think it was "immoral." Uh-huh. [snip again] quote:Hmm, that reminds me, I forgot about the "Dream Stooges." I liked the original Spanish names, which all related to sleep and dreaming, better; that's one more Woolsey thing that bothers me. But yes, I know, the "three stooges" you referred to was actually the Mighty Engrish Tlansration Trio. Yes, I got that. Good one, Sephiroth. Yes, FF4 Chronicles apparently keeps "You spoony bard!" (and sets it in all caps, to boot) and I'd be surprised if "That's okay! It would be happy to be used by us!" or "Fighting when mist will freeze you with Breath!" weren't kept either (since the other "classic spoony tlansration line," "You, the man of Darkness, using it does not mean anything to me, you fools!" was supposed to be a hint but wound up being horribly incomprehensible, I'd be surprised if Square kept that one xD). But the sentences in Chronicles are also supposed to be much longer, and having an entire game with a classic storyline set in Engrish is a bit... crappy. So I'm definitely glad Square redid it. Well, that's all for now. Peace The Man Posted by Sephiroth1999AD on 04-04-2002 02:47 PM:
Whoa, now there's a lot to reply. I'm too tired to put up [ quote ] -tabs all
around so I'll just reply to what you said. BTW Damn, there's so many threads
and you're posting in them all so I don't remember which is which and soon I'm
going OOC in all of them. Yikes. Posted by The Man on 04-04-2002 03:10 PM:
quote:No big deal. quote:Gooood question. It's a good line, though. The comment is Edgar's, and he says, "That's Shadow! He'd slit his mama's throat for a nickel!" Locke replies, "Best [or better] stay [or steer] clear of him, I guess." Woolsey may have also spelled "mama" differently; I don't remember exactly. *is too lasy to open the FF3 editor and look at the script* quote:This is true, but I think I read that she didn't say anything resembling "Was that a bad person?" in Japanese. I don't know if that's true. I do remember that I read a Mystery Science Theater lampoon of the game (with the FF7 characters doing the lampooning) that absolutely tore that line to shreds. quote:I never even knew that Square planned to release FF5 for the SNES at one point. Does anyone know why they canceled it? quote:Mebbe I'm just silly. Yes, I know how much more thoughtful Kafka is than Kefka, but the resemblance still bothers me. I guess I'm stubborn or something. Yes, Kefka's not exactly the most thoughtful person in the world. quote:I didn't, either, for a second, but the similarity is still there, and it bugs me. quote:Given Ted's penchant for wacky humor, I'd tend to agree with you. quote:I believe mash is a synonym for slice, so given Mash's habit of equipping Claws, it makes plenty of sense to name him Mash. At least to me. quote:I don't think they would have had to change the menu size or anything to add one character. Maybe you're right, but I'd rather they take a little extra time to give us a super-faithful translation than they change the names around. quote:I wouldn't mind Ramuh, either, if it didn't lead some people to believe it was pronounced "rah-muh." My instincts told it was "Ra-MOO" from the beginning -- it looked Indian -- but most people thought it was "Rah-muh," and so it's ultimately a question of whether we want people's pronunciation to be accurate or not. I'll agree with you that "Ramuh" looks cooler than "Ramu," but "Ra-MOO" sounds cooler than "Rah-muh," and I tend to go with sound over appearance. Perhaps that's because I'm a decent musician and a terrible artist, but I don't think people are very happy when their name gets mangled. I'm sure Ramu would feel the same way. As for "Efreet" versus "Ifrit," an "efreet" is, from what little I understand, a spirit in Arabian mythology, much like a djinn (or genie) is. Hence, my stern adherence to "Efreet" as a proper spelling. I'm sure that it was the original intention of the game's creators to name him after the spirit; I'm not sure if Woolsey was ignorant of that or simply wanted to be different, but in any case, I don't agree with his spelling. quote:And a crusade is a Christian Holy War. Is that any "better"? Nintendo of America can be so silly at times. quote:I didn't think so. What is it related to, then? No, don't tell me. Never mind. quote:They're definitely worth it. Holy Sword Legend 2 is a pretty short game, also, and after 22 hours of Holy Sword Legend 3, in which many of those were taken by my nitpicky sidequests and insistence on getting as many "Weapon/Armor Seeds" as possible, I'm well over three-quarters of the way through the game. But whatever. Yes, those all sound like good games. quote:I believe you mean Zero Wing. quote:I find it incredibly funny, for some reason. In a very sick way, of course. But I'd never heard it before your post, either. It just sounds like some unnecessarily enthusiastic advertisement you'd hear on TV or the radio, except that it's horribly demented and twisted. Then again, so are most advertisements, only in a different way. Also, with that Rosa quote you mentioned, I feel she earned it. FFT is the only FF game I really don't have any desire to play. I'm sure it's a great game, but I'm horrible at war strategy games (too much stuff to keep track of at once, when my mind is always horribly disorganized), so yeah. quote:Heh. quote:No problemo. *winces at his unnecessary usage of Spanglish* Peace The Man Posted by Daryl on 04-04-2002 03:21 PM:
Haha, I'm posting without reading all the replies first, 'cause I'm
lazy. Posted by mog42 on 04-04-2002 05:29 PM:
The names didn't bother me that much. After all, you can rename your characters if you don't like the way their names were translated. (except for characters that aren't in your party) Posted by The Man on 04-04-2002 05:40 PM:
quote:My big problem with Woolsey is that there are so many such characters and classes. For example, Vernon was changed to Banon, Ghastla to Gestahl, Cefca to Kefka, Môgri to Moogle (this wasn't his fault), Yeti to Sasquatch, Biggs to Vicks (this isn't really that big of a deal, since he's in the game for all of two seconds), Imp to Kappa, Genjû to Esper, Cait Sith to Stray, Lethe to Lete (which is probably Nintendo's fault -- stupid censorship. Heaven -- oh, excuse me -- "stars above" forbid that anything related to hell should creep its way into a game, even when it's such an obscure reference that only highly educated people can recognize it), Catoblepas to Shoat (a warthog), UltimaWeapon to Atma Weapon, Phoenix Tail to Fenix Down, and the like. Don't get me started again. That's exactly what this thread was designed to stop. Yes, I think that Woolsey is responsible for many great lines, but I also think he is responsible for many unnecessary changes that a player can't control. I'm going to reinsert the original references into the rom for myself one of these days, because it bothers me so much, but until then, I'm going to have to live with it. But ya know. I'll live, at least. quote:I agree wholeheartedly. I like his actual script, but the name changes were often completely unnecessary. And there's no way to change most of them. That's why I've bashed Woolsey so much lately -- out of sheer frustration. Never mind.
Edit by Daryl: *points at your OOC comment* That kind of discussion goes in PMs, just so you know, Man.  Check your
in-box.Peace The Man Posted by omnitarian on 04-04-2002 06:40 PM:
As a side note, a TON of stuff was changed most likely because it couldn't fit within the text limit, and in order to change it, they'd need to squeeze the font or stretch the windows, which is mainly impossible. Stuff like Cait Sith would have to become CaitSth, Pheonix tail/Down to PhnixDwn, HiPotion to HiPtion, Catoblepas to Catblps, Fallen Angel to FllnAngl, and all the spells (Blizzaga, for example) to Blzzga. And I'd have the alternate to any of those any day of the week. And then there's all that Nintendo censorship stuff. So I think the guy did a good job with what he had. Posted by The Man on 04-04-2002 07:57 PM:
quote:Actually, you're wrong about many of those. Yes, there wasn't enough space for "Catoblepas" (it would have had to become "Catoblps" or something else with eight characters or less), but "Cait Sith" could have become "CaitSith," "Fallen Angel" could have become "FallnAngel" (but Nintendo wouldn't have let that fly because "angels" are clearly going to corrupt our children), "Ultima Weapon" could have been "UltimaWeapon," and "Phoenix Tail" would have fit exactly as it was. I didn't mention the spells because there were only six letters for each, but we could still have had something better than "Merton." I've done some editing of the ROM myself, so I know that there was space for those names. I give the poor man credit where it's due, but there's no, and I mean no, excuse for "Fenix Down." Peace The Man Posted by Jinx on 04-04-2002 07:58 PM:
I wonder if when Ted Woosley was translating/localizing if he knew that there where people who were going to start a great big conversation/argument about the job he did. Poor guy, he works works works all day long and what thanks does he get? Thank you Ted Woosley because I'm too lazy to get up and go to Japanese 101 most days. Posted by The Man on 04-04-2002 08:02 PM:
Peace The Man Posted by Big Ogre Umaro on 04-04-2002 09:20 PM:
(*created the OOC tag* quote: I wonder if he would have told the truth if they had asked him about the graphics? GIA: How are the graphics on SM, Ted? Ted: Well, I'd rather eat four pounds of my own droppings than look at them for more than three minutes, Andy. Posted by The Man on 04-04-2002 10:45 PM:
quote:
quote:Very, very true. I don't think there's a person on the planet who likes "Fenix Down" for any good reason other than that it's what they're used to seeing, but you're right; it's ultimately opinion. quote:As immaculately proven by the pile of tripe we were handed called FF"2." Don't get me wrong; I love FF4, but the translation sucked, hands down. quote:Also, sadly, true. quote:Again, you're right. quote:And now we have the Internet, so yeah. Very few Americans actually know Japanese -- I know very little. One can argue -- I have in the past -- that that still gave Woolsey no right to change the names, but meh. Refer to BOU's previous point: "Video games weren't as important in terms of being art forms." One can argue that mass media still doesn't accept video games as art. Oh, if they only knew. quote:Yep. I suppose if I were a translator, I'd want to have a little fun, too. But I still don't think "Terra" fits the character one whit. quote:*hasn't played Shadow Madness, so can't comment* quote:Heh. That's a neat quote. I always enjoyed the line "loaded for bear," even though it's a wacky translation. On reflection, I think it's Nintendo's stupid censorship that I dislike more than Ted Woolsey. Most of the stuff that got changed really wasn't his fault. I can understand Nintendo's wanting to remove the fact that Celes was scheduled for execution -- if nothing else, to prevent kids that like Celes from being scarred for life -- but wanting to remove all references to things like "I'll be watching you from the heavens" and all references to religion is another thing entirely. I think that's just plain silly. quote: Rotflmao. That's one of the funniest things I've heard in weeks, BOU. (Yes, before anyone asks, I understand Ted didn't really say that). Peace The Man Posted by Big Ogre Umaro on 04-04-2002 11:45 PM:
Out of Character, initially (for RPing forums like Magestar), then Out of
Context. Someone would have done it if I didn't (*did the spoiler tag, too, I
think, although it was inspired by 'Kishi*), but I did it so I feel
special. Posted by The Man on 04-04-2002 11:50 PM:
quote:Cool. quote:Well, if you want controversy or irrational fools, perhaps this thread would be more your cup of tea. Though I think that's more akin to "flame war." It started out civil, but then one particular person decided to be a
jerk, so yeah. I decided to duck out of it after making a horribly rash response
(you'll know it when you see it; it's the one with all the curses that made
Britt really upset) because it was draining me of my vitality, just like a
certain character in a bad FF5 fan translation.  Honestly, BOU, I'm sorry I couldn't give you more controversy, but I realized that the Woolsey-bashing had gotten way out of hand as soon as you and Sephiroth brought it up, so yeah. The poor man would commit suicide if he'd been reading these forums in the past few weeks.  Peace The Man Posted by Sephiroth1999AD on 04-05-2002 09:12 AM:
Whoa, you've listed the things you would have wanted different in FF6 at
least 3 times, The Man
Oh, and are we having fun time playing with these OOC tags? Posted by The Man on 04-05-2002 04:37 PM:
I honestly don't mind "Imp" that much, but still, I think Kappas are cool. People who let it ruin their gaming experience are certainly letting it get out of hand. Anyway, I thought you'd like to know all that. Yep. The Fenix Down thing bothers me because I thought it was supposed to be "Fenix Down" for the whole time I was playing FF6. Then I realised that "Phoenix" was the intended reference, so bleh. And I just checked; there are exactly enough letters for either "Phoenix Down" or "Phoenix Tail" to fit, spaces included. There are eight spaces for letters in the Phantom Beasts' names, so "CaitSith" would have worked. And "UltimaWeapon," without a space between words (or the comma or quotes that I included  ) would have also fit perfectly, at least for the weapon. (Not
sure about the enemy). And there's always "Cayene" over "Cyan." So some things
Woolsey did could have been improved on, even without changing the requisite
number of spaces.Don't get me wrong. I still love many of the lines he was responsible for, so no Woolsey translation (except, perhaps, the horribly rushed Holy Sword Legend 2 job, which still has the brilliant line "A case of mistaken identity, huh? I guess I lose...") is without its merits.
Peace The Man Posted by Moose Knight on 04-05-2002 05:03 PM:
Ted Woosely is definitley not the best translator. It is the translator's job
to translate and not to change aroung the names of important people,
important diolauge, and whatnot. But he is a translator, and an ok one. You see,
any translator who can translate something, and the reader being able to know
very well what is happening in the [whatever he translated] is a good enough
translator to me. I don't have too many gripes about Ol' Woos, but one sticks
out like a sore thumb: Posted by The Man on 04-05-2002 06:01 PM:
quote:Personally, I don't mind all of his wacky jokes (e.g., "'Wait,' he says. Do I look like a waiter?" and "Son of a submariner!") but I do agree with you that he should have paid more attention to accuracy. quote:Ain't it the truth. quote:A "shoat" is a warthog, or so I've read. Yep, it makes no sense to me, either. "Catoblepas" wouldn't have fit in eight letters, however. The Phantom Beasts' names were alotted only eight. What is a Catoblepas, anyway? I only like it 'cuz it sounds cooler, I hate to admit. quote:Yep. Ted Woolsey is an English translator. The *coughs* three stooges who tlansrated FF4 originally were Engrish tlansrators; there's a clear difference.
Peace The Man Posted by chionos on 04-05-2002 06:15 PM:
yeah, play through legend of dragoon just once and you'll appreciate woosley games a whole lot more. i like localization. not necessarily for me, but i like games to be liked, and when a game has a good translation and i know a lot of people are going to like it, then i like it more. i don't mind word for word translations myself, but i think what woosley did with ff6 was alright. of course, i don't know what it would have been like had he not translated it the way he did, so...all i know is that ff6 is my fave, so... Posted by Moose Knight on 04-05-2002 07:47 PM:
quote: Shoat was based 100% off Catoblepas. In a project for my Latin class, a friend and I were looking up mythical creatures, and Catoblepas came along. Its description basically said, "A bull who is almost always looking downward. However, should it look upward, any object it stares at will be turned to stone." If that's not Shoat, I don't know what is. Yes, I know [Catoblepas] doesn't fit, but he could have shortened it like he did "Fenix Down." But not call it shoat. While Ted's at it, why not butcher the other espers by calling the Pheonix esper "Pidgeon", and Shiva Ice Lady. Which I'm glad he didn't, but that's just an example of what he did to Catoblepas. quote: Really? I absolutley despised Kefka's lines. For me, I would have enjoyed FF6 a lot more had Kefka actually been serious. Of course, Woosley didn't create Kefka's personallity, but his corny lines certainly were made by T. W. I don't want games I play to be "localized," or whatever. I want to play them exactly how they came from Japan. I don't care if there are jokes I won't get or references to Japanese culture I won't understand. However, this will never happen, so playing the game in English is the next best thing. Understand? I thought not. Posted by The Man on 04-05-2002 08:02 PM:
quote:Well then there you have it. But lemme say it again, in big, red letters: There were enough letters for "Phoenix Down" to fit perfectly. Uh-huh. quote:Cefca/Kefka was never intended to be a serious game villain, I think. He has an effeminate laugh and dresses like a clown, for chrissakes. At least he had personality, unlike *coughing* Exdeath. Not that I dislike FF5, mind you. I love it. But Exdeath still had no personality. quote:Ultimately, it comes down to a debate: Do we want the game to be more accessible to the general American public, or do we want to keep the game as faithful as possible? Sky Render has retranslated (faithfully, he says) the entire FF6 script exactly as it came from Japanese, and you can decide for yourself which version you like better. For the most part, I like Woolsey's, but Sky Render's certainly has its merits, too. Some people love Woolsey because he "Americanized" the games, and some people hate his guts for the same reason. I fall somewhere in between -- I like his writing style, but at the same time, I wish he'd left more of the Japanese culture in.
Peace The Man Posted by Big Ogre Umaro on 04-05-2002 09:18 PM:
quote: If game companies did it like that, the games would drop feverishly in popularity, and before you know it RPGs would drop off the shelves, never to return. This stuff has to have universal appeal. If the fans don't understand it, they're not going to buy it. My suggestion is that you learn Japanese and import, buddy. Lots of the jokes just DON'T translate, and that's the point of localization. Play some Working Designs games to see how great localization can be. If ya don't like it....woteva. 
Posted by Sephiroth1999AD on 04-09-2002 02:06 PM: I'm here to defend Woolsey! Hiya! I'm really tired to write an essay but I guess I'll just try to write a
long defending case. Posted by The Man on 04-09-2002 03:18 PM: Re: I'm here to defend Woolsey!
quote:Of course. I blame Nintendo for most of the bad stuff that happened to FF6, and the story wasn't nearly as screwed over as FF4's, in which all references to people sacrificing themselves for the party were out, Cain's pre-game relationship with Rosa was out (admittedly, that was only part of Square's Foundation Guide, not the actual game text, but it still never found its way across the ocean), all background about Cain's father and Cain's desire to maintain the family honor was out, Rydia and Edge's exchanges were drastically toned down, and Cid was deprived of all personality. But I still think there were important elements of the story removed in FF6, even if it was nothing as major as those in FF4 (Edgar and Mash's mother died giving birth to Mash in the Japanese story; in America's, she just died; in Japan, Celes was scheduled for execution when Locke rescued her and that was made explicit; in America, the only reference to anything like that was "I'd hate to be in your shoes tomorrow," which doesn't imply a death sentence). Again, though, that's Big N's fault. quote:I don't remember calling him lazy, and I think you're speaking directly to me. Do you recall me calling him lazy? If so, point me to it, because I'm sure I would only have said that awhile ago, in jest, or in exaggeration, because I know that Woolsey had limited time to work on all his SNES translations and I'm sure he didn't have time for laziness. I could have been referring to the short lines of FF6 (which, mercifully, aren't nearly as short as those in the FF4 easy type translation), but I was probably just giving him a hard time as a joke, if I said it at all. quote:True. I like localization to a point. But J2e didn't do it all the time -- I vividly remember the reference to William Shatner -- whereas Woolsey changed everything Eastern, from references to Eastern food ("wanna eat curry rice" became "...'n' some bread, and... mumble... mumble... ") to Eastern creatures (I think Umaro was called a Yeti rather than a Sasquatch in the Japanese version, and it's strange that it was changed, since more people know what a "yeti" is than a "sasquatch" anyway). I'm of two minds about Americanization. I think that if a reference is so obscure that virtually no Americans will get it -- for instance, references to Japanese folklore -- then, since video game translations can't have footnotes, a more valid cultural reference is in order, as long as it fits. I also think that some of the Americanization, like some of the examples you give below, was quite funny. But I don't think it needed to be done for the whole game, and I think that there are plenty of examples of things, such as those I gave above, that didn't need to be changed. What I'm saying is that Americanization is good, to a certain point, but sometimes, I'm thinking that Woolsey crossed it, such as by changing "Mash" to "Sabin" (because he thought "Mash" would sound dumb as a name to Americans, apparently) and Kappa to Imp. I like most of the examples you gave, but there are other cases in which I don't like it so much. quote:Yes, both of those are great. I laughed out loud when I heard "ERAUQSSIDLROWEHT," because it's true in FF6. quote:Yep. I agree, the pop culture references add something to the game, although I'm not sure that it was necessary to have the Imperial troopers say "Scram, you blockhead" a la Lucy from Peanuts, but I think the Beavis and Butthead-style reference to fire and Kefka's concurrent "Welcome to my barbecue," were hilarious. Most of the Star Wars cameos were in the original Japanese version, although, as has been pointed out in the FF5 "Turtle Power" thread, the similarity of Celes' rescue to Leia's rescue may have been added by Woolsey. But Wedge/Biggs was in the original game, and Woolsey didn't get it right -- it was Wedge/Vicks in his translation. (That wouldn't have been his fault, though, if Lucas threatened to sue them, but I'm fairly sure that Lucas is not the sort of person who'd sue someone who was paying homage to his works. I think he'd be flattered, no matter how much of a cult following the Star Wars movies have. I think anyone is flattered when people pay such homages to their works). quote:I agree; "Son of a submariner" (there's no preceding "you") is definitely a classic. Part of what makes it so funny is the fact that Figaro Castle had just made like a submarine. Sky Render's version hints at that by having the Chancellor say "Into the golden ocean Figaro nobly descends" instead of "No one can touch the people of Figaro," but then Cefca ruins it by saying "Son of a bitch" instead of "Son of a submariner." If the "golden ocean" quote and "Son of a submariner" had been used in the same scene in the same translation, it would've been even cooler, I think. quote:Ack. I completely forgot about that one. It's wonderful. Edit: The line, I believe, is just "Stop swooning!" There's no "you guys" at the end of it. [/EDIT] quote:Truuuuuue. quote:Especially given the fact that TW didn't exactly have forever to translate any of the games he worked on. quote:From what I've read of FFT's tlansration, I'd tend to agree with you. quote:*still hasn't played the PlayStation FFs* quote:I think it was just "Grand Dream" in the Japanese, but I can't remember. I also haven't played CC. They used "Masamune" (eh) and "Mastermune" (bleh) in the translation, as I understand it. quote:Agreed. I think FF6 is certainly quite a well-translated game in both versions. I think Woolsey managed to capture the more intimate scenes between characters quite well -- not necessarily the "physically" intimate ones, since I can't think of even one such scene in FF6, but the emotionally intimate ones. I think he has a wonderful grasp of how people interact in real life, even if his writing style is a bit... unconventional. That said, there's some stuff in SR's version that's just plain spooky, like when Tina says, "My head... it feels like it's disconnected from my body..." in the scene with Locke at Figaro in reference to her existential confusion. When SR manages to finish reinserting his texts, we'll be able to make a more valid comparison between the two. I think you have to see the dialogue in the context of the game, whether you think you do or not, to get the full effect of the script. Just reading some disconnected lines (and really, that's all the script he's posted is, since scenes got scattered all over the place in the ROM, and he wanted to keep them in the same order as they appeared in the ROM so that people with ROM hackers could compare them) isn't going to be enough to give you their emotional impact, especially when Woolsey's script is packaged with graphics, music, character blocking, and plot continuity. quote:I think you mean "shallow." But never mind. Again, you were reading it, not playing it. It might make a difference, whether you think it will or not. We'll see. I think your judgments should wait until the retranslated ROM gets posted. That said, I think Woolsey did do a better job with the characters' emotions; likewise, I think SR did a better job with their motives and with the meanings of what they said. If someone were able to combine the individual strengths the two into one translation, we'd have a completely brilliant translation that just might preserve the impact of the original Japanese; as they stand now, each translation has its own merits. Which is why I think both are worthy of attention. quote:I agree there -- didn't like Relm's character nearly as much in SR's version. I think I only found it funny when she said "jackass" the first time, and then it got old. I'm not sure whether I like her referring to herself in the third person, either. But meh. About sixty percent of the time, I like Sky Render's version more, and the other forty, I like Woolsey's. Neither version is by any stretch of the imagination perfect. quote:I hate it when that happens, too. Posted by GNU_Weapon on 04-09-2002 03:36 PM:
I liked his games. Localization is great.I wouldn't like a game that I didn't understand, or just think was blatently not funny when it supposed to be, just because it's made for a different culture. Posted by Sephiroth1999AD on 04-10-2002 09:06 AM:
No, The Man. That post above is an article/essay, so I'm not dedicating it to
anyone. So I'm not especially talking to you. It's for all who read it (FF6
players, EoFF forumers, Ted Woolsey fans & haters etc). Posted by The Man on 04-10-2002 09:30 AM:
quote:Meh. I was just showing what I agreed/disagreed to. Maybe I shouldn't have done that, though. quote:Mebbe. The characterizations were certainly at least based on the original Japanese version, though. :doesn't know enough Japanese to compare the original script with J2e's:
quote:Since it's a word, and the translator is supposed to translate, it certainly makes sense to rename "Kaeru" "Frog." Yep. I've never said that TW was always responsible for bad changes. "Magus" sounds spooky, while Jacky sounds like a kid. The food references, though funny, aren't as accessible to Americans as references to Black Sabbath's Ozzy Osbourne, Guns 'n' Roses' Slash, and Red Hot Chili Peppers' Flea. And I also like Sara-->Schala. I simply think Woolsey went completely overboard with the changes in FF6 and slightly overboard with them in CT. quote:I'm not sure what Vernon/Banon/Bannan's correct name is. Kishi said Vernon is a valid translation, and I like it. *doesn't comment* quote:True. I don't think I implied that they were Woolsey's fault. *is too lazy to check back* I just said that that made Sky Render's version more accurate, and it's one more reason I'm glad it exists. As I've said many times already, Sky Render and Ted Woolsey had completely different intentions when translating the game. Ted Woolsey's were making the game accessible to Americans and conforming to Nintendo's silly censorship regulations. Sky Render's were giving the game a translation faithful to the Japanese culture and removing Nintendo's stupid censorship. The censorship isn't Woolsey's fault, and with the other difference of intentions, I don't really think one is better than the other. Woolsey's version probably helped a lot more Americans appreciate the game. But there's also a thing to be said for accuracy. Which is why I like having both versions around. quote:That's fine. If the Masamune in CT had been a katana, I wouldn't have nearly as much trouble with TW's renaming, either; it's just that the mythical Masamune is not a fricking broadsword, and so no references in any game to a "Masamune" should not be made to a broadsword. Thank you very much. quote:I don't blame Woolsey for removing Celes' execution and Sabin's mom dying, "Sabin's Cabin" is somewhat funny, and Cefca's wait/waiter joke, as I believe I've mentioned above, is damn funny. quote:I like "Mash" because it's what he does with his claws. It's also faithful to the original Japanese, and I feel the translator's job is to translate the names faithfully to their original meaning. quote:I like "Cayene" better than "Cyan," and there aren't enough letters for "Cayenne" to fit. quote:I agree, that was unnecessary. So was changing Moogle or Môgri to Moglie, and I don't blame Woolsey for "Moogle," since it appeared first in the Holy Sword Legend 1 translation (renamed Final Fantasy Adventure in English-speaking countries because we apparently aren't tough enough to take references to religion) and Woolsey probably felt that keeping continuity would be a good thing. I also think that's what Square did later when they kept "Ifrit" and "Ramuh," though "Ifrit" is an incorrect spelling and "Ramuh," to anyone who doesn't get the fact that it's East Indian, would be pronounced wrong. I guess SR and TW both felt that "Ghastla" would be hard for American tongues, but I pronounce it just like "ghastly" only with a different vowel sound at the end. Meh, it's not that hard. quote:In his latest translation, it's Phantom Beast, so we can safely ignore that complaint now, Sephiroth. quote:Actually, it does. I'm sure that that's what it was in Japanese; Woolsey probably changed it because he didn't think it would be identifiable to American gamers. He might've been right, but since FF6 is a Japanese game, I like to remember at least slightly while playing it that what I'm playing is from Japan. I'm also sure that "Samurai," which is what Cayenne is described as (instead of as a "retainer"), is another direct translation. I like those. quote:Agreed, that was unnecessary. quote:I think the "you're awfully short for a soldier" was still there. Regardless, if it wasn't in the original script, his purpose was to translate what was there, and nothing else. SR had a much different purpose than Woolsey did, so it's really quite pointless to keep comparing the two. But regardless, that's why I'm combining the best elements of SR's and the best elements of TW's with my own imagination in my latest rom-hacking project. quote:Agreed, that was probably unnecessary. quote:Agreed; completely unnecessary. It is in the script -- it replaces the "ERAUQS SI DLROW EHT" puzzle -- but I liked it fine where it was. quote:Again, I agree. It was a clever joke that meant something in the context of the game. SR was frustrated by this puzzle, because he says it replaced one of the only verbal gags in the original script that he couldn't find a reasonable English approximation to. Yep. At least putting "RENIRAMBUS A FO NOS" in place of this shows that SR has something of a sense of humor of his own, but "ERAUQS SI DLROW EHT" was more appropriate and I liked "Son of a submariner" fine where it was in TW's script. By no means am I saying that I think SR was perfectly justified in doing everything he did. But by no means am I saying the same about Woolsey. Each translator has his flaws, and each translator has his merits. I'm simply saying that I'm glad that both versions are now available. quote:And here, too. quote:Yes, it should have been a string of ascii characters, or just "Damn^16 DAMN YOU" like it apparently was in the Japanese version, if Sky Render found it truly necessary to change "I hate^16 HATE YOU" at all. Personally, I think the "Damn you" quote is creepiest because putting so much of a curse on someone simply because she scratched him with her sword seems pretty extreme. That's what I've placed in my version, although the ASCII characters seem pretty funny. Problem is, there aren't enough of them to make enough variety for it to stand out. quote:*can't comment 'cuz he doesn't know Japanese* quote:Most of the language was apparently there in the game to begin with. Perhaps it was random ascii characters; if so, SR removed the censorship. I honestly don't let it bother me. I think it's a silly thing to get angry about; ignore the language if it frustrates you and look at the rest of the script, which you don't really seem to have done very much yet. There are some other benefits to his version beyond the lack of censorship, which, as you've pointed out, isn't always a benefit. I agree with most of what you've complained about with SR's version, but I also have my complaints with TW. Neither translator is even close to unblemished; I think if they'd been working together, Woolsey's grasp of emotion and his possession of at least a little restraint would have balanced well with Sky Render's insistence on faithful translation and accuracy in conveying characters' meaning accurately to what they said in the game. But they'd probably have ended up hating each other's guts by the end of the project. Oh, why, Nintendo, did you have to have those stupid censorship rules in the first place? Death happens in real life, Big N. SO GET OVER IT. Okay, now that that's out of my system... quote:No, it's illegal for people to download a hacked ROM unless they already own the original versio |
), but now most companies are
trying to do what he did, sooooo I like 'im. There's really no reason to get all
mad about a less-than-accurate translation. Final Fantasy III (US) was a great
game because it had good gameplay, story and characters.